Where does Kentucky fit?

[Louisvilleslugger]

KY History:

--Pioneer families came from NY, NJ, PA, MD, DE, as well as VA and NC. VA and PA contributed the most. KY was the original American West, and it was considered western before areas to its north or south were settled.

--Civil War--KY was strongly Union and strongly pro-slavery. The state's economy did not come to depend on slavery as did the South's because KY lies too far north for growing cotton (Nashvillle lies around the northern limit). However, the cultural & political centers of 1800s KY (Lexington, Danville--the Bluegrass) strongly favored slavery and profited from slave trading. At the same time, the state was home to a vocal abolition movement. In the war, 75% of enlisted soldiers fought for the Union. Southern sympathizers fled south to TN to form raiding parties (e.g. John Hunt Morgan and the Orphan Brigade). The Confederacy strongly wanted KY to join, and in fact invaded the state's southern counties, holding Russellville and declaring Bowling Green the capital of Confederate KY. However, the Confederates fled ahead of advancing Union troops after a few months.

--after the Civil War: Louisville had the industrial capacity that no Confederate city had even before the war (Richmond being the South's major industrial center). Louisville businesses quickly marketed themselves as southern to capture a large share of the carpetbagging/reconstruction industry. John Hunt Morgan, who had raided the state during the war, was celebrated as a local hero.

KY Geography:

--In proximity, it's a shorter drive from Lexington to Detroit than to Atlanta. 2/3 of the state's population lives in a county bordering the Ohio River.

--Most of the state is hilly to rolling. Eastern KY, topographically, belongs with WV and PA and eastern TN. Western KY belongs with the rest of the mid-Mississippi valley (SE MO, S IL, NE AR, W TN). Central KY has some level agricultural areas: the Bluegrass, around Lexington, and the Barrens, around Bowling Green. It also has some very hilly areas (visit Mammoth Cave or Muldrough's Hill).

KY self-identification:

--Most Kentuckians hold a strong sense of geographic identity. Some Midwestern-minded Kentuckians ignore all things Southern about their state or claim their part of the state is different from the rest. Some Southern-minded Kentuckians will bend the state's history to be more Southern; they will claim all the state's pioneers came from the Virginia Tidewater, and they will claim ancestors fought for the Confederacy. Both sides will passionately argue these points.

KY accent:

--In linguistics, there is a theory of the Midland dialect, a distinct dialect apart from the South and the Great Lakes. I believe that dialect exists in most of KY including Louisville and Lexington. In Hopkinsville, Bowling Green, and Somerset, however, one is more likely to hear "y'all." (Most Kentuckians will say "you all" as two distinct words or "you guys.")

My conclusion: I have lived in Louisville, Lexington, and Bowling Green, and my relatives live mostly in Indiana and Tennessee (and my in-laws in West Virginia). One cannot reasonably conclude that KY is in a different region than either TN or IN. At the same time, one cannot classify IN and TN in the same region.... I think the area between I-70 and I-40 forms a gray area between Midwest and South, a Midland. If one wants to place Kentucky in either region, it just depends on the measure used. It could fall either way....

--2/3 of the population is more midwestern than southern; 2/3 of the land area is more southern than midwestern.

--White Castle holds Louisville and Lexington. Krystal dominates Bowling Green.

--Grits or Cream of Wheat? I have never tried grits....

Well naturally every city over 500K is going to have a diverse population and Louisville and Lexington having proximity to the midwest are going to have White Castles, But we also have one Crystals (there's only one in Louisville and I believe quite a few in Lexington), one bogangles (in Louisville), and Clicka filas (only in Southern states).

Louisville (culturally and Historically) is much much more of a New Orleans or Birmingham than it is a Minneanaolis or a Milwalkee and Lexington is much more of a Columbia or Raliegh than it is a Des Moines or Omah.a Also considering all of these midwestern and Southern cities are a consideral distance from these two Kentucky cities I most say our culture has much more in common with Southern cities. Look at the Victorian architecture downtown (in Louisville) found all across the the South in places like New Orleans, Savanah, Charleston, ECT. and I can't even think of one Midwestern city with that kind of architecture especially the style in the Old Louisville neighborhoods.

New Orleans, Richmond, Memphis, and Birmingham were also major industrial centers of the South, mainly because all but Birmingham were located on Major Rivers which brought industry to the city.

Louisville also had one of the largest slave owning populations in the nation, unlike Northern/midwestern cities who didn't have slaves.

Kentucky has the 5th largest Southern Baptist population in the Nation another Southern trait.

I must also say you would find just as many if not more Southern accents in Louisville than you are in Nashville, I have family there and go there on a regualar basis, the two cities might as well be twins. Also on the episode of DO YOU SPEAK AMERICAN - "Southern language", The man started out o the Ohio River in a Steam paddle Boat stating the Southern Language is less common when you leave the Louisville area ( or also the starting point of where it's a majority in the Native population), But is apparent directly across the river.

Kentucky has much more in common with Tennessee than Indiana. You have to think about the entire state. Southern Indiana has alot in common with Louisville (apparent and even states this in Wikedpedia) and says the area has more of a Southern culture than a Midwestern. Central Indiana is when you can really see the difference in the two states. The Southern accent is less common and the landscape is like a field, unlike Kentucky which starts getting abit mountainous like most states in Applachia. Once you get ot Northern Indiana you are in a totally different state from Kentucky, It's just like a mini Chicago with the Factories and steel mills of Gary and all the other Great lake cities. I mean honestly I don't see how people can come to the conclusion Kentucky has anything in common with the great lakes.

Tennessee on the other hand you can't tell the difference between the two states, I mean if you slip up and miss the Welcome to Kentucky/Tennessee sign you won't know your in a different state until you see the so and miles to Nashville or Bowling Green signs.

The Memphis area is in the extreme SW corner of TN where as Gary is in the Extreme NW corner of Indiana and you want to compare the region by that then Paducah has much much more in common with Memphis than lets say Owenboro would Gary and that's apparent.

Then in the east you have Appalachia which extends through Pn, Tn, Ky, Wv, Va, Nc, Ga, and Sc now if your going to say that area belongs to any region than it would have to be the South and the culture of that region obviously dipplicts this. So agian I have to say this is a Southern trait.

In the people category I have to say 2/3 of all Kentuckians are Southerners and most people would see this traveling through the state. geograohy is also 2/3 Southern, from the wetland areas in the Western part of the state, to the appalachia areas in Eastern Kentucky.

Now I'm not going to exclude Northern Kentucky (Cincinnati area) that area is more so the hybrid of the two regions some say is all around the state, when the rest of the state is indeed Southern.

Also some guy trying to prove Texas was a Deep South state did a survey in Kentucky, Virginia, and Texas to see what percent of the residents identify with the South. I believe near 80% of Texans identified with the South and Kentucky and Virginia tied at I believe was 75-77% of the population idenitfying with the South, If you want me provide the link I will.

Also either my uncle was lying about his catches in Western Kentucky or I may have got it mistaken for Alligator Gaul which are found in Kentucky.

[Rural King]

Also either my uncle was lying about his catches in Western Kentucky or I may have got it mistaken for Alligator Gaul which are found in Kentucky.

He may have just been mistaken because someone told him that or was pulling his leg. I just know we don't have alligators in this region. Now there are places where it looks like we might should have them, like Reelfoot Lake in NWTN.

[Louisvilleslugger]

Also Kentucky residence with acents far out number the ones without. Indiana on the other hand it's not to common to see a residence in a rural area of the state with an accent. For example Carnel Sander (founder of KFC and Corbin Kentucky native) and that John Orville (the man who invented Orville popcorn and he was from rural Indiana) both are from rural areas of their state. Cornel Sanders has a Southern accent and if you seen that most outrageouos resturants on the Travel channel you could easily see that the majority of the people out the KFC cook off in COrbin had a SOuthern accent. Orville on the other hand has a midwestern/neutral accent and he's from a rural area of that state. So language wise a I stated earlier Kentucky is much Sothern

[Louisvilleslugger]

Actually I got those percentages wrong 82% of Kentuckians and Virginians identify with the South

Southern

[Snowguy716]

I would say it is southern. The accent is southern, the food is southern, the people are southern.

Again, my view is biased. I come from the north of the north. Northern Minnesota, where peoples' balls turn blue from cold by mid-September and where Moose will flip your car over on the highway if you honk your horn at it.

Anyway, as far as linguistics are concerned, I would consider them more southern. (But this is coming from a person who believes that southern Iowa is southern.)

You wanna know a real midwest accent... Den come up 'ere to Minnesooooota.. maybe hang out on da range for a cup'la days and maybe have a good helpin' a hotdish and maybe some lutefisk! It'll be som'in else, don'tcha know! Oh yaaaa! A heckuva deal, let me tell you!

[monodelmar]

Also Kentucky residence with acents far out number the ones without. Indiana on the other hand it's not to common to see a residence in a rural area of the state with an accent. For example Carnel Sander (founder of KFC and Corbin Kentucky native) and that John Orville (the man who invented Orville popcorn and he was from rural Indiana) both are from rural areas of their state. Cornel Sanders has a Southern accent and if you seen that most outrageouos resturants on the Travel channel you could easily see that the majority of the people out the KFC cook off in COrbin had a SOuthern accent. Orville on the other hand has a midwestern/neutral accent and he's from a rural area of that state. So language wise a I stated earlier Kentucky is much Sothern

Harland Sanders was born in Henryville, Indiana. At the age of 12, he moved to a farm in Greenwood, Indiana. He did not move to Corbin, KY to open his restaurant until he was 40. That said, he is definitely a southern character. That comes more from his adept marketing/public image skills than it does from his background.

Also, Louisvilleslugger & Snowguy, you're very right in noting that KY is in a different part of the country than MN. The accent is different here. That said, the accent in KY is also different than the accent in AL or LA. I have talked with many rural residents of KY and IN, and I think the accents are quite alike, both being Midland.

[Louisvilleslugger]

I'm sorry I don't know what part of Kentucky you're from, But I must contend that Kentucky's culture and accent is identical with that of Tennessee which is Southern. Think about the states as a WHOLE. Indiana around Gary is greatly influenced by Chicago which is anything but Southern. On wikipedia it states that Southern Indiana is more Southern than Midwestern as it is culturally and economically tied with Louisville, And once you get into lets say Scott County then it's a TOTALLY different region from Kentucky and that's apparent. Now can you kindly point out what part of Tennessee is so different from Kentucky as there are so many areas in Indiana.

True enough Kentucky isn't as Southern Alabama or mississippi but it culturally has 3x more in common with those Southern states which as Southern as they come then Minnesota which is as Midwestern as they come and anyone can see this. I mean History and Culture were some of the deciding factors in grouping kentucky with the East South Central States along with Alabama, Mississippi, and Tennessee. Seriously IMO you need to do a little more traveling around this state if you think that most of the residence (even including the ones in the rural areas) actually have more of a Midland accent, As a matter of fact there are a few surveys on language and EVERY SINGLE ONE groups Kentucky in with other Southern states when it comes to accents.

And can you please give me a source of the information about Cornel Sanders (the KFC founder).

[monodelmar]

Now can you kindly point out what part of Tennessee is so different from Kentucky as there are so many areas in Indiana.

Seriously IMO you need to do a little more traveling around this state if you think that most of the residence (even including the ones in the rural areas) actually have more of a Midland accent

And can you please give me a source of the information about Cornel Sanders (the KFC founder).

http://www.kfc.com/about/colonel.htm

I have read about the Colonel's life in a few places, and this sums it up fairly well.

As for traveling further around the state, I have visited all 120 counties, from Fulton to Pike, and I've seen a lot of southern and midwestern characteristics. If one's point of reference for the Midwest is Minnesota, then, undoubtedly, Kentucky is southern. Likewise, if one defines the South as Louisiana, then, undoubtedly, Kentucky is midwestern. One argument is as fair as the other.

[Louisvilleslugger]

Kentucky and Louisiana has no where near the difference as Minnesota and Kentucky and this is quite obvious from Cultural reasons to Historical reasons And you know that, So can you please tell me how Kentucky has the Culturally and Historically has the same amount of identity with Minnesota and Wisconsin as Alabama and Louisiana. I mean I think it's quite clear that nearly 80% see that the Southern influence STRONGLY overpowers the Midwestern influence which can really only be found in Northern Kentucky boarding Cincinnati.

I mean what makes Kentucky's language Midland I mean the person with that kind of accent found around state outside of the Major cities are treated like an outside Like a person with a Southern accent in New York City here's a site of the Southern language http://www.ic.arizona.edu/~lsp/Southern.html

I honestly can't see how a state that had the largest Slave Owning population after Virginia and Georgia, Has Swamps in the East, The Appalachains in the West, Most of it's residence have a Southern accent, Every Single Govenor is a Redneck, Has no chance of voting anything but Republican, and revolves around Derby is Midwesten I mean it makes no since.

If you really look deep at Kemtucky's Culture and History the only states in the Midwest it can somewhat relate are Missorri and Southern Indiana/Illinois yet according to most sources on this Subject that area is more Southern than Midwestern. There are a few maps on the "Where the South Begins/Ends" showing this.

So plain and Simple Kentucky is a Southern state Culturally and Historically.

There's more of an argument on if Louisville has Midwestern influence and it does it's just the Southern influence STRONGLY overpowers the Midwestern influence even across the river.

[Louisvilleslugger]

Southern Language

Here's another map that shows dialects of the U.S. English dialect and Kentucky is included in the UpperSouth along with Tennessee, West Virginia, and Virginia along with several areas of other Southern states and a portion of Southern Indiana, Ohio, Illonois, and even a touch of Southern Missouri. Thus the conclusion that Kentucky is a Southern state.

[Rural King]

http://www.kfc.com/about/colonel.htm

I have read about the Colonel's life in a few places, and this sums it up fairly well.

As for traveling further around the state, I have visited all 120 counties, from Fulton to Pike, and I've seen a lot of southern and midwestern characteristics. If one's point of reference for the Midwest is Minnesota, then, undoubtedly, Kentucky is southern. Likewise, if one defines the South as Louisiana, then, undoubtedly, Kentucky is midwestern. One argument is as fair as the other.

Fulton to Pike, and all the other 118 in between! Well you know all to well how different and very diverse KY is, esp. if one wanted to compare the characteristics of those two counties, ie a West KY river county vs. East KY mountain county. Thats awesome and very cool IMO! I hope to visit all of Tennessee's 95 counties one day. Well on my way.

[shaneg12]

[size=5]I just accidentally found this site

[Rural King]

^ Kentucky is in the South sub-forum, so no need to be writing any letters.

You wrote a very impassioned post on your views which is fine, but just remember UP is a discussion board and people are entitled to their opinions even if some may disagree with them.

[GR8scott]

isnt the mason-dixon line the southern border of kentuky? I would say kentucky falls under both groupings, like saying texas is in the south, well I happen to think texas is more in the west. There seems to be more of a midwestern winter with snow, which to me does not seem like the south. so yeah, it falls under both groupings depending on which attributes you are compring, but I voted midwest

[Louisvilleslugger]

Uhh it snows in North Carolina, Tennessee, Virginia, and Arkansas regularly, so by your defintion none of those states can be Southern.

Also you're wrong the Northern boarder of Kentucky/The Ohio river is what the Mason Dixon Line turns into when it edges off of the Maryland/Pennsylvania boarder.

I mean it's like some people just try to find the slightest reason to categorize Kentucky as midwestern (even though everything else about it is Southern), when most of those people would find the exact same thing in most Southern states. I mean I thinkn it's just time to get over it and quit nit-picking with Kentucky because it BOARDERS Northern states (which the parts of the Northern states boarding Kentucky are considered Southern by the rest of that state). KENTUCKY IS A SOUTHERN STATE PLAIN AND SIMPLE. This is best told by Shane12 in which no one can deny any of the points he brings up, because it's true. Yes this is kind of offensive.