Richmond Developments

[ric75]

Ok I begged to get flamed on the snooty comment... but for the sake of argument, arent we all middle class or above male, and possible white local Richmonders? I know most people who attended were interested in the process and Im sure the design and suggestions were all nice...

For those who attended, what was your opinion of the mix of those who showed? If it was in the vicinity of a 50/50 white to African American mix, then I will hush up.

But based on the article it was nowhere near that... which is where my snooty comment originated from... I actually love the concept of Plant Zero... but in the context of this exercise I find it excluded a large, and important, portion of the local population. And this isnt just my opinion, it is the opinion of other people I have talked to who didnt go to the exercise, they found Plant Zero to be exclusive and just another portrayal of the government ignoring their opinions and needs. Why couldnt this process have been done at a library, city hall, or the convention center?

I also find it very interesting that SMBW architects is located a block or two away from this... pretty convenient for them...

These comments are completely absurd. Just because the white/black ratio wasn't 50/50 doesn't mean blacks were discriminated against. It means they didn't show up. End of the story. You act as if the building they held the meetings in had an entrance marked "whites" and one marked "negroes" which cleverly led them to an isolated room where they couldn't express their opinions. Plus how would black citizens know this was an evil, racist building if they had never even set foot in it before? This building just happens to be surrounded by predominantly black neighborhoods so your argument holds no water. Let's stop with the PC BS excuses and get down to business of bettering our city. We can't force people to participate and it's not our fault if they don't. I'm just happy that several hundred people of ANY color showed up to help build the future of Richmond.

[burt]

I think it's Kory who has Butter & Molasses blog (or whatever you call those things). Anyway, it's an excellent site which I'm posting here.

http://floricane.typepad.com/buttermilk/ri...ment/index.html

He has lots of information including a summary of the charrette.

Notice there are before and after maps of downtown. On the second one you can see the Mystery tower that may go up at 8th/9th/Main/Cary triangle, only it's not atriangle anymore in this depiction.

[wrldcoupe4]

John Sarvay is the blogger behind buttermilk and molasses.

Burt, that map was simply an artists perception of what could be done. I even watched on wednesday at the workshop as it was being done. I highly doubt that block will go back to being square. Among other things on it, were new buildings fronting the street but sharing the same block as the fed reserve which would NEVER happen. So, as the process continues, the ideas and concepts will be refined into practical and feasible goals.

There were some really neat ideas particularly for Manchester including how best to use space behind the flood wall. Hopefully more images will become easily accessible soon!

[burt]

John Sarvay is the blogger behind buttermilk and molasses.

Burt, that map was simply an artists perception of what could be done. I even watched on wednesday at the workshop as it was being done. I highly doubt that block will go back to being square. Among other things on it, were new buildings fronting the street but sharing the same block as the fed reserve which would NEVER happen. So, as the process continues, the ideas and concepts will be refined into practical and feasible goals.

There were some really neat ideas particularly for Manchester including how best to use space behind the flood wall. Hopefully more images will become easily accessible soon!

Was there any discussion about use of the Manchester canal behind the flood wall?

[journiyin]

These comments are completely absurd. Just because the white/black ratio wasn't 50/50 doesn't mean blacks were discriminated against. It means they didn't show up. End of the story. You act as if the building they held the meetings in had an entrance marked "whites" and one marked "negroes" which cleverly led them to an isolated room where they couldn't express their opinions. Plus how would black citizens know this was an evil, racist building if they had never even set foot in it before? This building just happens to be surrounded by predominantly black neighborhoods so your argument holds no water. Let's stop with the PC BS excuses and get down to business of bettering our city. We can't force people to participate and it's not our fault if they don't. I'm just happy that several hundred people of ANY color showed up to help build the future of Richmond.

Actually I wasnt being PC. I was merely pointing out a flaw in the planning process. Which is that these planners chose a location that isnt neutral to most people. Like I said, why wasnt the library, city hall, or other public location chosen, as opposed to the artists colony? I am questioning that decision not only based on racial motivations, but a lack of consultation of the local communities. Why couldnt they knock on a few peoples doors and ask a few questions? Find out what those people need? I dont mean to piss off everyone, and I definitely understand where you are all coming from, but it bothers me that no one will accept that a one weekend charette is not enough to include the public. Yes there were 5 or 6 days that people could come in and several hundred did (which by the way is awesome in of itself, just not awesome enough), I know this, but I am just as busy as the next guy and I couldnt make any of those times. Maybe I just work too hard, I dont know. In my mind anyone who has to work hard enough just to get by isnt worried about what happens to their streetscape until happens to be built. But, if one of these people are asked one day walking down the street, they sure the heck will tell you. I applaud those who made the meeting, I made that abundantly clear. I also applaud the work that they did, it looks great. I think it looks great from my backseat position, which is the position that those who chose not to go have taken. I am not saying that Plant Zero is a discriminatory locale, in fact I am sure it is a very diverse location - that is still not representative of Richmonds native population.

[wrldcoupe4]

Was there any discussion about use of the Manchester canal behind the flood wall?

Actually, yes Burt. I think it's actually called Miller's Creek and they were big proponents of cleaning it up and having a Manchester side Canal Walk-esque area. Redevelopment could be utilized in the space between the floodwall and the canal in a really ingenious set up. It could also include extending the streets in some spots across the canal to expand the grid and promote more development.

[wrldcoupe4]

I dont mean to piss off everyone, and I definitely understand where you are all coming from, but it bothers me that no one will accept that a one weekend charette is not enough to include the public. Yes there were 5 or 6 days that people could come in and several hundred did (which by the way is awesome in of itself, just not awesome enough), I know this, but I am just as busy as the next guy and I couldnt make any of those times. Maybe I just work too hard, I dont know. In my mind anyone who has to work hard enough just to get by isnt worried about what happens to their streetscape until happens to be built. But, if one of these people are asked one day walking down the street, they sure the heck will tell you.

The charrette was only the very beginning of a long process which will include public input the entire way. At the meeting, the planning folks urged those who were present to get the word out that anyone can contact them or the city at anytime to offer thoughts and suggestions. Additional formal public meetings are planned over the next few months as well to get public feedback. So, if someone was busy last weekend or even throughout the week, they still have plenty of opportunities to participate as much or as little as they choose.

[Cadeho]

I think it's Kory who has Butter & Molasses blog (or whatever you call those things). Anyway, it's an excellent site which I'm posting here.

http://floricane.typepad.com/buttermilk/ri...ment/index.html

He has lots of information including a summary of the charrette.

Notice there are before and after maps of downtown. On the second one you can see the Mystery tower that may go up at 8th/9th/Main/Cary triangle, only it's not atriangle anymore in this depiction.

Wow, John really covered it. I was wondering if I should post any of the pics I took. I guess since he did I could.

Shockoe Creek can be uncovered, they just have to reform the way we handle stormwater runoff as was shown in a slide with examples from other places. The plan only has it being uncovered north of Broad. The original creek is actually under Main Street Station... which is why I wish they'd put a water element on the Cathedral Walk to pay homage I guess to the creek.

The infill went overboard to me. I did have to laugh at the new buildings around clustered around the Federal Reserve and in other odd spaces. At least they had a hint of a signature building (although probably not tall enough for the size lovers) on the triangle block. If 8th and 9th are converted to two-way traffic, the block no longer needs to be a triangle. Remember, put pedestrians first and cars second. The current set-up makes it easy to zip by as traffic speeds toward the bridge.

And the Manchester Millrace, I've never heard of Miller's Creek until the plan's presentation. It's not a creek, it's a man-made millrace for the flour mills Manchester had. They talked about extended the streets of Manchester to sort of meet the river in order to connect Manchester to the river. I brought up at my table that the NS railyard needs to be developed into some kind of public space, which was met with the history of the railyard and silence. I still love to see how they would make Manchester's numbered streets two-way since they're almost as wide was alleys.

I do like the trolley plan, of course it'll mainly be along Broad. It'll loop through VCU and in Shockoe Bootm and Shockoe Slip and use Governor St! I hope the state deals with that.

And you know what was funny, there was supposed to be a protest of sorts and they didn't even materialize for that. There's no room for racial complaints (Free Press). They just needed to advertize better. The Convention Center would have worked with the amount of space, but it wouldn't have suited the theme of it all.

[jbjust]

I don't know about you JourneyIn, but I wouldn't give too much weight to the views expressed during a door-to-door interview. It's not like they had the meeting out at Short Pump or at the Bull and Bear Club.

[wrldcoupe4]

The Convention Center would have worked with the amount of space, but it wouldn't have suited the theme of it all.

I imagine using the Convention Center would have cost too much money, though it would have worked well. My guess is that the Plant Zero folks either donated the space for a week or gave it to the city for a very low price.

[burt]

I imagine using the Convention Center would have cost too much money, though it would have worked well. My guess is that the Plant Zero folks either donated the space for a week or gave it to the city for a very low price.

I'll bet the usual that Plant Zero was also used to emphasize the importance of Manchester in the overall plan.

Was any mention made of high rise residential in Manchester such as the ultra modern tower we have seen and possibilities for the now abandoned plots at south end of Lee Bridge?

And is the trolley car route the same as we have seen in past discussions?

[journiyin]

See I can rely on everyone to answer the questions I pose. That is how this is supposed to work. Well hopefully I can make one of the other planning session meetings.

[burt]

I can't remember which thread contains the false alarm about a skyscraper on the downtown triangle. Anyway, a poster named Richmonder at RCW says the latest news is that a 14-story building atop 7 levels of parking will fill the lot, and that a hotel will go up (I guess) on the other smaller triangle on 8th Street.

Disappointing, to say the least. That site cries out for something extraordinary.

[Cadeho]

We're Richmond Burt... we don't know what extraordianary is.. we've got a fix on the ordinary part though. The smaller lot is way too small for any building... unless you want a closet hotel.

[journiyin]

We're Richmond Burt... we don't know what extraordianary is.. we've got a fix on the ordinary part though. The smaller lot is way too small for any building... unless you want a closet hotel.

Someone suggested bridging the gap, which would enlarge the site. Or, going to one way would eliminate the snaking road.

[burt]

We're Richmond Burt... we don't know what extraordianary is.. we've got a fix on the ordinary part though. The smaller lot is way too small for any building... unless you want a closet hotel.

Brrowing from your cynicism a structure of 14 office floors and 7 parking levels would probably top out at less than 200 feet, and a slim hotel on the tiny triangle would have space for about three suites on each floor.

It's an "extraordinary" site that will not be used to its fullest advantage.

BUT, we don't know yet whether this is officially the plan. Remember how lots of us were duped by the Dallas W!

[wrldcoupe4]

Less than 200 ft? I'd say at 23 stories (**approximate assumption of floors) it would at least be near 300 ft. At 20 stories, One James Center is 285 ft while Dominion is nearly 310 ft.

Since we were fooled last time, I'm waiting to pass judgment.

[burt]

Less than 200 ft? I'd say at 23 stories (**approximate assumption of floors) it would at least be near 300 ft. At 20 stories, One James Center is 285 ft while Dominion is nearly 310 ft.

Since we were fooled last time, I'm waiting to pass judgment.

Well, I was figuring floor count thusly -- 10' per office floor - 14 X 10' = 140'; 8' per garage level - 7 X 8' = 56'. Grand total -- 196'.

[ric75]

To add a bit more to the charrette discussion... was anything brought up about utility line burial?? I seem to be the only one here with a big pet-peeve about this but when I drive up Main Street as I did this morning and see the ugly spiderweb of utility lines in front of our 5 star hotel The Jefferson and across the entire block in front of VCU's new buildings I can't help but think Richmond dropped the ball by neglecting to bury these lines while all the constructions was taking place. I understand it's a fairly expensive venture but those couple of blocks stand out like a sore thumb and I'm sure it leaves a bad impression on visitors of the Jefferson. Any thoughts on trying to move the city to bury utility lines in areas like this and Shockoe Bottom?

[Cadeho]

To add a bit more to the charrette discussion... was anything brought up about utility line burial?? I seem to be the only one here with a big pet-peeve about this but when I drive up Main Street as I did this morning and see the ugly spiderweb of utility lines in front of our 5 star hotel The Jefferson and across the entire block in front of VCU's new buildings I can't help but think Richmond dropped the ball by neglecting to bury these lines while all the constructions was taking place. I understand it's a fairly expensive venture but those couple of blocks stand out like a sore thumb and I'm sure it leaves a bad impression on visitors of the Jefferson. Any thoughts on trying to move the city to bury utility lines in areas like this and Shockoe Bottom?

Yes it was covered and they produced a renderings without them.

[ric75]

Yes it was covered and they produced a renderings without them.

Thanks Cadeho. For what areas did they produce renderings? What were your impressions?

[wrldcoupe4]

It likely has more to do with Dominion than the City. It's expensive because not only do you have to bury the utility lines but you also have to create new utility connections on the existing buildings that are equipped for overhead lines. Most would have connections near the roofline, so if you put the power lines underground, you couldn't use the same connections.

Edited July 31, 2007 by wrldcoupe4

[burt]

It likely has more to do with Dominion than the City. It's expensive because not only do you have to bury the utility lines but you also have to create new utility connections on the existing buildings that are equipped for overhead lines. Most would have connections near the roofline, so if you put the power lines underground, you couldn't use the same connections.

But they've done it in the past twenty-five years in areas of downtown.

I agree that West Main between the Jefferson and Main looks pretty gross with all those lines overhead. But so does the Jefferson's parking lot, for that matter. You'd think a 5-star hotel would want to improve the view from its back windows. By the way as I mentioned in Dining Out, the Jefferson's 5-star Lemaire will close in January to be completely redocorated and, possibly, be given a new name.

[wrldcoupe4]

I'm simply saying it isn't a cheap fix, particularly when there are higher priorities than asthetics. Perhaps Dominion can be talked into doing an act of goodwill by working on fixing the overhead lines for free.

The sea of parking lots and empty lots surrounding the Jefferson (and owned by the Jefferson) are stupid to say the least.

[Cadeho]

If I can remember, I think they did a part of Shockoe Bottom at 17th and Broad, Marshall and 2nd, and Hull and 7th without the utilities. Fulton Village and I think Fulton Manor have no wires above ground... but then again, they're newer areas. But I think it can be done in phases...