How far, how high, how big

[Jenkins]

Also, with their proximity, Providence and Pawtucket might as well be considered as one city. It would be good if the connections between the two along Hope and North Main could be strengthened.

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On that same note, what is with all of the empty store fronts on North Main St. as you are heading out of Providence and into Pawtucket? It is really too bad, considering the amount of traffic North Main Street gets, that it is kind of blighted there (I am talking about the area just north of the North Burial Grounds).

[gregw]

Brown owns or used to own the former Ethan Allen and Sears Automotive (near 3rd) and there was talk about a CVS (yawn) coming in but that appears to have fallen through. They also talked about an offsite parking garage for Brown but that too seems to have gone nowhere. Miriam, I think, still owns the former Sears Bldg. further up North Main and can't seem to make up its mind what to do with it.

I personally would vote for a Trader Joe's at one of those sites. They would make a killing..

[KRC]

I personally would vote for a Trader Joe's at one of those sites. They would make a killing..

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That would be great. I love Trader Joe's!

[kurtosis]

I've heard orders of magnitude more Boston "no, mine's bigger!" belly-aching about NYC than Providence about Boston. 

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I absolutely agree. I grew up in southern NH/ Mass. and went to Brown in the 90's. One of the things that surprised me in Providence was how little there was of the pessimistic attitude (a combination of

insecurity vis-a-vis NYC, old-fashioned tribalism, and petty snobbery) which I had always associated with New England. There is a huge amount of this in Boston, I remember seeing an earnest globe headline after the Democratic convention, something to the effect of "So... are we cool yet? (or is it uncool if we need to ask?)". It is truly pathetic to see the city behaving like a 13 year-old. The flip side is that Boston tends to take out its frustrations by bashing smaller cities or suburban areas and prattling on about how much more cultured and urbane Boston is (again, I'm thinking of many articles in the globe, etc.)

I found very little of this in Providence (and also less of the view of "well our roots are up tight puritan, irish catholic, etc. and we'll never change") So something I've been wondering for a while is what New England would be like if Providence were the dominant city (granted this is purely hypothetical!) I think it is more forward looking and clear headed than Boston, and on the whole a better example for the region.

[Cotuit]

So something I've been wondering for a while is what New England would be like if Providence were the dominant city (granted this is purely hypothetical!) I think it is more forward looking and clear headed than Boston, and on the whole a better example for the region.

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Welcome kurtosis.

Interesting line of thought to consider. I think having the region dominated by a city that was founded by Roger Williams in rebellion against the Boston Puritans would have made for a rather different track for New England. I'll have to give this some more thought, interested to hear what others think.

[glassandsteel]

You have to remember that one of Providence's downfalls in the first place was the strangle-hold put on by conservative folk. Not too long ago, most stores closed relatively early in Providence. This made the malls more appealing and killed our downtown shopping district (just one example). Providence was born and revived by the need for freedom (from persistant christian rule) and quality of life, but brutally slaughtered in between by the hands of conservatism. This is part of the city's collective personality (the "renaissance city"?) because for many people, the rotting remains of Providence are a recent memory and still visible in a few places. To be honest, Providence once had better chances of being top dog (which it briefly was on a national level) than Boston but we stopped and sat idle for a VERY long time. This however, is the very strength and allure of modern day Providence.

To sum up my opinion I would say that I'm glad that our city was dormant during that time of history. We've bypassed horrible "urban renewal" plans, decades of horrilbly bland architecture (many of Boston's most noticable structures are the ones that deserve least attention), and came to on the dawn of an era of renewed love of the civilized urban lifestyle. It's as if we slept till our time came back. We serve as a better example by the story of our revival. It can shift New England's future by serving as a model for other small-to-mid-sized cities and by showing the importance of our abandoned urban cores.

[DaveRPI]

Wow!  First, I disagree with everything you just said.  I stick by my statements as true.  You are way to defensive.  My statement was a time reference, not a political statement (which was the reason for my response, you missed the point).  The point you made about Rhode Islanders feeling inferior to Boston is so wrong that I'm not going to bother to continue because I get the impression you are just negative on Rhode Island altogether.  We'll never agree.  It's a shame your so defensive because we could have had some great dialogue.  Sorry.

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Not defensive at all... just having fun

I just took every point that you made and tried to give you good counterpoint, which you didnt seem to have ANYTHING to say back to... hmm

That

[rusthebuss]

I wouldn't go that far on pinning Providence's hopes on Boston's success.  A good example would be the economic melt down after the current White House resident moved in.  Massachusetts and Connecticut lost quite a few jobs, Rhode Island continued a slow and steady growth rate.  Indeed, a few years we were the posterboy of economic stability.

Now, I'm not saying that we are not depended on Boston.  We are, just as much as New England (excpet CT perhaps) is all one area dependent on each other.  I just don't think Providence's fortunes rise and fall with Boston as much as people think.  A good example is Bank of America's decision to locate some jobs here.  Boston's economy could completely collapse and those jobs would remain here becuase they serve a national market.  Boston had little to do with that.  Citizens has some big plans for Rhode Island.  Where's Boston in that formula?

I don't think Providence will ever shoot up the economic ladder like Boston, but slow and stead wins the reace and it appears Rhode Island has got that formula down cold.

Providence's real potential?  Limitless.  Why?  Because Providence knows what it is, knows what it isn't, knows what it wants to be, and knows how it wants to get there.  Add it a dash of local pride and I think that's an unstoppable measure.  We are hardly Boston's little brother.  Hey, if Boston refugees want to join the party and if a few companies think the pasture is a little greener here, GREAT!

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I hate to inform you but the economy was taking a real dump before clinton left office.

[CtownMikey]

Wasn't Clinton this countries most successful (maybe top 2 or 3) president in terms of economic improvement.????? What I would give for another 4 yrs of him.. ANYWHOO.. im happy to see so many people relpying to this topic

[AriPVD]

There is something to be said for this 'inferiority complex" and something to be said against it. I find that the majority of Rhode Islanders (especially those over 30 and not particularly invested in the future of Providence) are VERY cynical and often do not believe that good projects (like the many we've seen recently) come to fruition (and if they do, they likely fail). I cannot express the innumerable people who see downtown redevelopment as a pipe-dream and waste of time, energy and money. I would wager that this sort of pessimism lives in the suburbs, but in fact I've also found it in some of the most-respected and economically well-connected residents of the East Side.

This cynicism, however, is not an inferiority complex. It does not translate into a distrust or jealousy of Boston. Many Rhode Islanders (especially well-to-do ones) must visit Boston for upper-market items not available in Providence. In general, Providence residents do not desire to be Boston, with the exception of our admiration for their sports teams. There is little doubt that Rhode Island is a parochial and provincial place--considered weaknesses and unexploited as strengths. I think many Rhode Islanders do not consider Boston to be a threat or utopia simply because (despite the 45 minute distance) they DO NOT consider it to be within their sphere of influence (which is relatively small). Because Boston and New York are both major (and famous) American cities, they are often compared and put side-to-side. Hence, Boston's inferiority complex. I look forward to responses.

[gregw]

There is something to be said for this 'inferiority complex" and something to be said against it. I find that the majority of Rhode Islanders (especially those over 30 and not particularly invested in the future of Providence) are VERY cynical and often do not believe that good projects (like the many we've seen recently) come to fruition (and if they do, they likely fail). I cannot express the innumerable people who see downtown redevelopment as a pipe-dream and waste of time, energy and money. I would wager that this sort of pessimism lives in the suburbs, but in fact I've also found it in some of the most-respected and economically well-connected residents of the East Side.

I think AriPVD is dead on here. Which is why it's such a good thing that Providence has been able to attact people from elsewhere. People from NY, LA, Boston, wherever, don't have the same prejudices and preconceptions about Westminster St. or the West End and see these areas for what they are - damn nice places with tons of character.

[CtownMikey]

yea.. no1 realizes what we have here.. not even me yet

[rusthebuss]

Wasn't Clinton this countries most successful (maybe top 2 or 3) president in terms of economic improvement.?????  What I would give for another 4 yrs of him.. ANYWHOO.. im happy to see so many people relpying to this topic

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Living off of what the first bush did and what Reagan did. It takes years for bills really to take effect. We are now feeling the presence of MR.CLINTON now. That is where people are ignorant. Just because you pass a bill everyone thinks it effects everything now.

[CtownMikey]

I was referring to the nationally televised event that every president has when he finishes a term.. i forgot what its called. That event.. if I remember correctly (i was hella young).. gave him that label.. but i duno im just wondering

[KRC]

I hate to inform you but the economy was taking a real dump before clinton left office.

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If that's what you need to believe, go for it.

[KRC]

Living off of what the first bush did and what Reagan did. It takes years for bills really to take effect. We are now feeling the presence of MR.CLINTON now. That is where people are ignorant. Just because you pass a bill everyone thinks it effects everything now.

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Did you really think that'd fly in Rhode Island? This forum is about our city of Providence, not your political views. Thanks.

[KRC]

This cynicism, however, is not an inferiority complex. 

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I agree with you. I also think this phenomenon is familiar to everyone. I think people tend to take what they have for granted. This is especially true for those people who have never lived elsewhere.

I lived in many places in the world and have been lucky enough to experience many different things. I chose to settle in Rhode Island because of what it is and where it's going. The natives may be cynical, but they are still proud of where they are from.

[Garris]

I agree with you.  I also think this phenomenon is familiar to everyone.  I think people tend to take what they have for granted.  This is especially true for those people who have never lived elsewhere.

I lived in many places in the world and have been lucky enough to experience many different things.  I chose to settle in Rhode Island because of what it is and where it's going.  The natives may be cynical, but they are still proud of where they are from.

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100% correct.

Also, after nearly a year of living in Wayland Sq, I've come to view the opinions of "landed" East Siders (as opposed to many of those renting on the East Side) as nearly indistinguishable from any other suburban community. Especially those who grew up here or have been here for a while as, for them, the East Side in their mind is a Providence suburb, while for many others like myself it's just seen as an integrated part of the city. We see the suburbs of today as being places like Barrington and East Greenwich, which the old timers see as being "the sticks." Folks like me would like to see the East Side better integrated into the rest of the city and more "urban." It'll happen, but it'll be slow...

- Garris

[Cotuit]

Enough with the national political Reagan v. Bush v. Clinton v. Bush talk. The discussion is about Providence, not who has the biggest hard on for which administration.

Thank you.

[DaveRPI]

what was this thread about anyways? i forgot

i was too busy preparing my macro economics lesson for krc

by the way, some boston people in my office saw this thread and laughed at the thought of providence competing on boston's level....

i try and defend provy but they just laugh it off

[glassandsteel]

Thank you, Cotuit.

[CtownMikey]

the thread IS pretty much about Providence's economic limits.. hmm I wonder how those Boston employees just happened to come across and thread like this..

Just tell them that the New Yorkers are laughing at them in the same way

[KRC]

the thread IS pretty much about Providence's economic limits.. hmm I wonder how those Boston employees just happened to come across and thread like this..

Just tell them that the New Yorkers are laughing at them in the same way

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that statement about Boston employees coming across this site was less than truthful. No one compared Boston to Providence at all; at least no one from Providence. I didn't. Did you? Perhaps it happened while someone was gathering macro economics lessons.

To be fair, it's actually flattering to think that Boston folk imagine we compare ourselves to them. It certainly means they think about us even if we don't think much of them.

[kurtosis]

You have to remember that one of Providence's downfalls in the first place was the strangle-hold put on by conservative folk.  Not too long ago, most stores closed relatively early in Providence. 

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I agree with your point about Providence having missed out on a lot of potentially bad development. But I think this has more to do with economic fortunes. I was thinking more of intangibles. That conservativism (things closing early, etc.) is fairly widespread in new england. but in boston it is reinforced by a very strong tribalism. my mom's family is from the traditional irish/italian vein in boston. having been around that culture a lot i think there is still a very strong sense in some quarters of who's a "real" bostonian and who's not. in providence i have always found much less of that.

[kurtosis]

To be fair, it's actually flattering to think that Boston folk imagine we compare ourselves to them.  It certainly means they think about us even if we don't think much of them.

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I think that Bostonians spend a lot of time thinking about their status with respect to other cities.

Realistically i guess it's unlikely that Providence will overtake Boston, even in 2-3 centuries. (i know that's a much longer time frame than what's usually discussed on this board, but hey, the cities are already older than that!)

What interests me is not so much development prospects but the huge difference in character between Bos and Prov and what it would be like if Providence set the tone for the region rather than Boston. I think that more than any other non-Boston part of New England, Providence has its own thing going. Boston, while still a healthy city, has more or less passed its peak of influence (unlike say nyc which will always be #1 in the country). As a result it seems people there have a lot of insecurity over a) always being smaller than new york and b) watching other cities surpass boston in growth as young people continue to leave massachusetts. in providence i think the overall mood is much more conducive to moving the city forwards and not being fixated on an ingrained mentality.

p.s. I have not lived in New England for 7+ years. A lot of my impression of Boston is from the bad old days of the 70's-80's. So I would be interested to hear if people think things have changed much.