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CONSTRUCTION THREAD: Riverplace


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I think Breed is right. As DT becomes more of a residential neighborhood and visitor destination, at some point some national retailers will give DT a try. If successful, more will follow. Charleston's King Street used to be primarily local merchants (except for Charleston Place proper). Now that street is primarily national retailers. Charleston has resolved the issue to some degree by merely moving the locals further North above Calhoun Street.

The degree to which this happens in Greenville will be based in part on how many of the local merchants OWN their buildings rather than just lease them. Anyone have a feel for that?

It is something of a catch-22. We all want the product lines and selection that come with national retialers going DT, but at the same time what does DT retail have to offer if it is as homogenized as a surburban strip center.

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I think Breed is right. As DT becomes more of a residential neighborhood and visitor destination, at some point some national retailers will give DT a try. If successful, more will follow. Charleston's King Street used to be primarily local merchants (except for Charleston Place proper). Now that street is primarily national retailers. Charleston has resolved the issue to some degree by merely moving the locals further North above Calhoun Street.

The degree to which this happens in Greenville will be based in part on how many of the local merchants OWN their buildings rather than just lease them. Anyone have a feel for that?

It is something of a catch-22. We all want the product lines and selection that come with national retialers going DT, but at the same time what does DT retail have to offer if it is as homogenized as a surburban strip center.

Good analysis, vicupstate. I do think, however, that having some national retailers downtown is a much different (and better) shopping experience than having those same national retailers in a suburban mall or lifestyle center. The latter are very needed, but I think Greenville is growing and evolving in such a way that we can have both. In fact, to take the next step as a city, we need both. A good illustration of how far we still have to go in terms of national retailers in urban areas is the fact that we just got our first Starbucks in the CBD.

Edited by Greenville
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It is something of a catch-22. We all want the product lines and selection that come with national retialers going DT, but at the same time what does DT retail have to offer if it is as homogenized as a surburban strip center.

And that's exactly why we would want to 1) spread them out, 2) limit their numbers, and 3) be very selective about which ones come downtown.

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I see more national retailers downtown as something that will come in maybe five or ten years. By comparison, uptown Charlotte has maybe 60,000 office workers and 10,000 residents and has only a few mall-type chains other than Starbucks and restaurants; Columbia has pretty much zilch on Main Street, and Charleston's King Street feeds off high-end tourist traffic, which Greenville doesn't really have. Greenville's downtown is a lot smaller. Plus any chain at Haywood might not want to locate downtown, as the two stores could cannibalize each other. The only national chains I foresee heading downtown in the near future would be something like Target or another big-box retailer locating somewhere near downtown, as Staples is doing, but not right on Main Street. Maybe a Hallmark store or something like a GNC Live Well (wasn't there one on N. Main a few years ago?), but no Ralph Lauren store or the like anytime soon. I think that's for the better, as I like Rush Wilson and the gift shops downtown.

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If our local stores are competitive in terms of price as well as what they offer, it shouldn't matter if a national retailer enters the downtown market. Most people who shop at a local retailer do so not out of convenience, but because they like the idea of supporting local people. Paying a bit more for better service (real or perceived) is a trade-off many are willing to make. These people will probably continue to shop at Rush Wilson for a suit rather than going to Brooks Brothers. The people who immediately go for the national chain they recognize are not likely to ever set foot in a local store on a regular basis anyway, are they? I would be surprised if a great degree of overlap exists between those who prefer local retailers and those who prefer national retailers.

Also, I would be shocked if a Gap in the West End negatively affected Gap's business at Haywood Mall. Both would do well.

Edited by Greenville
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RT's ideas make sense, but how to you enforce it?

If a national retailer, doesn't need a zoning change, their would be nothing that the city would necessarily have to approve. It's a free country, if a national wanted to come DT, there would be little to stop them. I think mallguy's analysis is correct though. It will be 3-5 years at least before Gville has to worry about it, IMO.

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RT's ideas make sense, but how to you enforce it?

If a national retailer, doesn't need a zoning change, their would be nothing that the city would necessarily have to approve. It's a free country, if a national wanted to come DT, there would be little to stop them. I think mallguy's analysis is correct though. It will be 3-5 years at least before Gville has to worry about it, IMO.

I haven't heard of a city successfully preventing a retailer from locating at a site based solely on the fact that they are not locally-owned. I'm not sure you would really want to either.

It's retail evolution. Local retailers face a big test when national retailers enter their market and provide direct competition. Many locals don't succeed, but those that do are enormously successful... often expanding to other markets... placing burdens on the local businesses in other markets.

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I haven't heard of a city successfully preventing a retailer from locating at a site based solely on the fact that they are not locally-owned. I'm not sure you would really want to either.

An interesting case occured in Austin (the de facto home of the independent business movement). The city had incentivized a developer to redevelop a block downtown. Kudos all around.

But this particular block that was being redeveloped was next to Book People and Waterloo Records, two distinctly Austin businesses (Book People is the largest independent bookstore in Texas). And word leaked out that Borders was an anchor company for the new development.

No one had a problem with the incentives to the developer, but they did have a problem with the city incentivizing national retailers at the expense of local retailers.

Thus was born www.ibuyaustin.com and the ensuing Keep Austin Weird campaign. In this case the city and the developer reconsidered and the corporate headquarters of another Austin company ended up locating in the newly redeveloped block (Whole Foods HQ).

So, Greenville needs to tread lightly when building parking decks and funding streetscape improvements for developments that cater to national retailers.

It is certainly a blurry line, but any assistance (financially or infrastructure) should heavily favor local businesse and retailors over national chains).

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I haven't heard of a city successfully preventing a retailer from locating at a site based solely on the fact that they are not locally-owned. I'm not sure you would really want to either.

I just saw a show on UNC TV last evening about the Grove Arcade in Ashville. It was built in the 20's and recently restored as shopping, offices, and condos. The city of Ashville operates it and does not allow any chain business, only local shops. Something similar to this would be a neat addition to downtown Greenville. There are some more pictures and info in this thread in the Ashville forum and in this story.

Edited by sc smitty
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Columbia has an "Arcade" building that is very similiar. Not as ornate as Asheville's though. It is privately owned, but since no national retailer wants to be in DT Cola (excluding restaurants), it is mostly local businesses. I think it has a fair amount of vacancy though.

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I just saw a show on UNC TV last evening about the Grove Arcade in Ashville. It was built in the 20's and recently restored as shopping, offices, and condos. The city of Ashville operates it and does not allow any chain business, only local shops. Something similar to this would be a neat addition to downtown Greenville. There are some more pictures and info in this thread in the Ashville forum and in this story.

Grove Arcade is really a great gem in downtown Asheville. Greenville unfortunately doesn't have a similar type structure, although I still think a permanent structure for a downtown market would breed this same kind of local owned stores. Something in the proximity of Riverplace would be a phenomenal success!

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Hi! This is my first time posting, although, (ha ha) I've been following this blog now for many months. Great pics g man! Since I rarely get to go to Greenville these days, I really appreciate pics like yours that let me see the progress of these great new developments.

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Hi! This is my first time posting, although, (ha ha) I've been following this blog now for many months. Great pics g man! Since I rarely get to go to Greenville these days, I really appreciate pics like yours that let me see the progress of these great new developments.

Welcome to thte forum! Where do you live currently? Have you lived in Gville previously, and when?

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