CONSTRUCTION THREAD: Riverplace

[krazeeboi]

I actually think it would look much better in real life, of course with proper proportions and refined elements taken into account. It is only a simple sketch and lacks enough detail to completely visualize its affect on the surrounding skyline. Taking an educated guess, it appears to be no greater than three stories taller than the building currently being proposed by Hughes. I definitely prefer its elegant design elements to that of the current proposal and imagine it would add to the variety of architecture in the CBD, rather than "stick out" in a negative way. I really love the way they positioned the "tower" (a mid-rise at best) in relation to the current development along the river. Hopefully we will see something truly unique in that area soon -- in addition to Reedy Square, of course.

I disagree. The building calls too much attention to itself in more of a negative way than a positive way. The rendering provides enough to see that this is the case. It comes across more as a souped-up version of a central building in a suburban town center than something appropriate for a truly urban, mixed-use development that consists of several buildings. If something like this were to be built, I think it would be better suited for somewhere else in downtown, but definitely not part of Riverplace.

[Skyliner]

Apparently our individual perceptions of urban design in relation to RiverPlace and the West End are potentially incompatible. Unfortunately nobody will ever have a chance to see exactly how the buildings would look if they had been constructed in reality. Such is life. As a local resident, I am hopeful that we will ultimately see something at least slightly (if not completely) dramatic in the future, even if it comes across as "a souped-up version of a central building in a suburban town center" to someone else. Rarely do urban project proposals maintain a consistent appearance throughout the entire course of a conceptual design phase, in Greenville at least. In some cases the design changes are intended to enhance the original concept, while others are intended as a completely alternative option. In this particular case, it is my opinion that the designer was mentally on the right track and could have successfully utilized an enhanced version of the original concept in that location.

I don't expect everyone (or even anyone) to agree with this opinion, nor is it my intention to convey the notion that I will be displeased with every development proposal that lacks architecturally dramatic appeal. At this moment in time, most of us are likely willing to submit favor (occasionally overshadowed by disappointment, as in the latest Main at McBee proposal) toward any new downtown development that satisfies the most basic urban design principles.

[GvilleSC]

To each their own. However, has it been determined if this is even being discussed in the correct thread? Has the scope of Riverplace jumped Camperdown Way, or is this simply a neighboring development?

[Skyliner]

Both Allora, LLC and Hughes Investments participated in the earlier phases of RiverPlace, plus each of the proposals shown in this thread indicate an apparent design connection to the current riverfront development. Considering its close proximity to the original footprint, I suppose it is safe to assume they are trying to expand the "RiverPlace district."

[GvilleSC]

"RiverPlace district."

I like the way you phrase that!

[apaladin]

I like the way you phrase that!

Is Bob Hughes through with Greenville? He just spent a gazillion dollars on the Bull St project in Columbia. He has been named developer etc. Looks like he has taken his ball and gone to Columbia, LOL.

[GvilleSC]

Is Bob Hughes through with Greenville? He just spent a gazillion dollars on the Bull St project in Columbia. He has been named developer etc. Looks like he has taken his ball and gone to Columbia, LOL.

The Bull Street project is huge. It's not going anywhere fast for a while.

I'm not worried about his Greenville endeavors. He's going to build where he can, and that's going to be in both cities. They each can only absorb so much at once...

[gman430]

Is Bob Hughes through with Greenville? He just spent a gazillion dollars on the Bull St project in Columbia. He has been named developer etc. Looks like he has taken his ball and gone to Columbia, LOL.

I can guarantee you he is not done with Greenville. He is planning something large downtown in fact. That's all I will say for now.

Edited December 18, 2010 by citylife

[gs3]

Is Bob Hughes through with Greenville? He just spent a gazillion dollars on the Bull St project in Columbia. He has been named developer etc. Looks like he has taken his ball and gone to Columbia, LOL.

Far from a gazillion. He picked the property up cheap. It was practically a give-away. Any developer would be stupid not to buy the property....even just to sit on it for years to come. I am glad to see a quality Greenville developer branching out.

[vicupstate]

It wasn't 'cheap' in this economy. There weren't any other buyers that we know of. It was about 86k an acre.

I hope he knows what he is getting into. The site has a lot of potential but it has lots of challenges too. The 'urban pioneer' market isn't that big in Cola., from my experience. For his sake and Columbia's, I hope he is successful.

[gs3]

15 million for 165 acres, in the middle of a city, is a steal! Cheap by most any cities standards.

[GvilleSC]

The biggest downside in my opinion is that it continues to spread out Columbia's resources. It seems difficult to attract many various things when you've got the option downtown to be in the Vista, Five Points, Main Street, or now at this campus, and none of them are connected well enough to support and complement the others. Unless the price point starts are extremely low, why would residents or retailers decide to locate here as oppose to small, already established districts?

[disclaimer: this is an opinion of a situation that I have observed ]

Edited December 23, 2010 by GvilleSC

[clt29301]

The biggest downside in my opinion is that it continues to spread out Columbia's resources. It seems difficult to attract many various things when you've got the option downtown to be in the Vista, Five Points, Main Street, or now at this campus, and none of them are connected well enough to support and complement the others. Unless the price point starts are extremely low, why would residents or retailers decide to locate here as oppose to small, already established districts?

[disclaimer: this is an opinion of a situation that I have observed ]

I agree, while a large plot of land like this has a ton of potential, it also comes with a lot of challenges, both developmental and geographical. One of the largest challenges is what you described, there are other established areas with synergy that in my mind, are more desirable. And, geographically, this land is not connected to any of the other districts or close to the university. The Bull Street property is located on the outer limits of downtown and with a $15m price, is expensive, especially after combining the opportunity costs of capital and carrying costs. Holding this property as speculation would not be a smart move. But, on the positive side, this land is about an hour from Charlotte and the airport. With a huge number of direct flights, it could be marketed easily to companies who need direct flights such as headquarter companies. And, based on the developer's prior projects, this project should turn out nicely.

[krazeeboi]

The biggest downside in my opinion is that it continues to spread out Columbia's resources. It seems difficult to attract many various things when you've got the option downtown to be in the Vista, Five Points, Main Street, or now at this campus, and none of them are connected well enough to support and complement the others. Unless the price point starts are extremely low, why would residents or retailers decide to locate here as oppose to small, already established districts?

[disclaimer: this is an opinion of a situation that I have observed ]

Good points (and the "spreading out" is just a consequence of being a planned capital city with a lot of downtown institutional land uses; it has its benefits, but there are a host of challenges that go along with that as well), but it should be kept in mind that if Hughes adheres to the Duany plan in principle--and he has indicated that he plans to do so--this will be a TND with a mix of uses as opposed to only being a commercial district a la Main Street, the Vista, or Five Points. That being the case, I think the most important thing is that the campus is connected to other surrounding residential neighborhoods and not necessarily other commercial districts. And that will certainly be the case, with Cottontown to the west and the Robert Mills historic neighborhood to the south. I think the development will appeal to people who like New Urbanist-type communities, but within an authentic, traditional urban setting and not at an interstate exit. It's a long-term project, so it will have time to make its case.

[gman]

What happened to the discussion about Riverplace in Greenville?

[Skyliner]

What does any of this discussion about Bull Street in Columbia have to do with Greenville or the RiverPlace development in particular? Someone noted that the newly contracted developer is the same developer responsible for RiverPlace, but that was where the discussion ended its relation to this topic, in my opinion. If we at least try to discuss each individual topic in the correct thread(s), then we'll know where to look for the latest information about it.

[krazeeboi]

We did get a bit off-topic here, but the project in Columbia was brought up in relation to how it might impact Hughes's presence in Greenville in terms of present and future development. Not sure if he's ever taken on more than one large project in two (or more) cities before, but even if he hasn't, I don't think that would negatively affect any of the projects he's working on, including RiverPlace.

[GvilleSC]

I don't mean to take this further off topic, but I'm genuinely curious...

Good points (and the "spreading out" is just a consequence of being a planned capital city with a lot of downtown institutional land uses; it has its benefits, but there are a host of challenges that go along with that as well), but it should be kept in mind that if Hughes adheres to the Duany plan in principle--and he has indicated that he plans to do so--this will be a TND with a mix of uses as opposed to only being a commercial district a la Main Street, the Vista, or Five Points. That being the case, I think the most important thing is that the campus is connected to other surrounding residential neighborhoods and not necessarily other commercial districts. And that will certainly be the case, with Cottontown to the west and the Robert Mills historic neighborhood to the south. I think the development will appeal to people who like New Urbanist-type communities, but within an authentic, traditional urban setting and not at an interstate exit. It's a long-term project, so it will have time to make its case.

I don't know that "spreading out" in Columbia's case really has that much to do with it being planned, or government. Actually, I don't think it has anything to do with that. I'm not sure how it could, actually..? Having an expansive grid has nothing to do with how you allocate your efforts to redevelop. Can you imagine where Greenville would be today if it had tried to re-do Heritage Green, Main Street, the North End/Stone Avenue, the River front, and the West End all at once? There'd be pockets of activity and no connections. You might not think it's important to have the Bull Street campus connected to any other nodes of activity, but I'd think the success of this development would hinge on that. Otherwise, it might as well be off of an interstate, because you're going to be self contained in your bubble of development and not adding to OR taking advantage of the shopping, dining, and entertainment opportunities that are blocks away.

Back to Riverplace: Did y'all know that the O-Cha owners had originally wanted to open in Charlotte? However, seeing uptown close at 5pm everyday didn't seem supportive of a tea bar. Thus, they made the move to Greenville and started their business. Personally, I think this was a huge victory for Greenville.

[krazeeboi]

GvilleSC: For the sake of trying to get us back on topic here, I'll respond in the Bull Street thread in the Columbia forum.

[GvilleSC]

GvilleSC: For the sake of trying to get us back on topic here, I'll respond in the Bull Street thread in the Columbia forum.

Thanks!

[clt29301]

I don't mean to take this further off topic, but I'm genuinely curious...

I don't know that "spreading out" in Columbia's case really has that much to do with it being planned, or government. Actually, I don't think it has anything to do with that. I'm not sure how it could, actually..? Having an expansive grid has nothing to do with how you allocate your efforts to redevelop. Can you imagine where Greenville would be today if it had tried to re-do Heritage Green, Main Street, the North End/Stone Avenue, the River front, and the West End all at once? There'd be pockets of activity and no connections. You might not think it's important to have the Bull Street campus connected to any other nodes of activity, but I'd think the success of this development would hinge on that. Otherwise, it might as well be off of an interstate, because you're going to be self contained in your bubble of development and not adding to OR taking advantage of the shopping, dining, and entertainment opportunities that are blocks away.

Back to Riverplace: Did y'all know that the O-Cha owners had originally wanted to open in Charlotte? However, seeing uptown close at 5pm everyday didn't seem supportive of a tea bar. Thus, they made the move to Greenville and started their business. Personally, I think this was a huge victory for Greenville.

Hey Gvillesc, I know this is off topic but, since you brought it up, I thought I would ask. First, how is getting a tea shop a huge victory? I guarantee you that Charlotte will not miss a tea shop. And, I doubt that it was in the discussion when we were named a finalist for a national political convention. Secondly, by your statement, you seem to think that Charlotte closes at 5:00, what at all gives you this idea? Have you been to Charlotte? EpiCentre? TW Cable Arena? Any of the new acclaimed museums or performing arts venues? 4th Ward? Professional sports venues?

Edited December 26, 2010 by clt29301

[GvilleSC]

Hey Gvillesc, I know this is off topic but, since you brought it up, I thought I would ask. First, how is getting a tea shop a huge victory? I guarantee you that Charlotte will not miss a tea shop. And, I doubt that it was in the discussion when we were named a finalist for a national political convention. Secondly, by your statement, you seem to think that Charlotte closes at 5:00, what at all gives you this idea? Have you been to Charlotte? EpiCentre? TW Cable Arena? Any of the new acclaimed museums or performing arts venues? 4th Ward? Professional sports venues?

Hey, back at ya! Good bubble tea is a good find. Every place has their own recipe and the owners of O-Cha have a good recipe and great personalities. Thus, I'm REALLY glad to have them invest in our downtown! It doesn't matter WHO it matters to. I know Charlotte has other bubble tea places, but I also have been to them and know they're lacking on their brews... Just an opinion, though. You may not care who opens in a shopping center, but the same thing with a better product endorsing our downtown is a BIG win.., IMO! We'll take it, AND, we have! They've been successful and should continue to be!

The owners of O-cha said Charlotte's downtown hours were problematic. Too much business and not enough of everything else. This WAS before 2000. However, it's no secret that Charlotte is extremely business focused downtown, and has had problem getting the kind of synergy that Greenville offers on evenings and weekends. I have lots of family there and experience it year round. It's been improved over the years (NO DOUBT), but it's still a work in progress for a City that size. And, back in the 90's, Greenville quite honestly has Charlotte BEAT. It's not a question. However, as a Charlotte and Columbia booster, I'm sure that'll be difficult to see... Whatever....

[clt29301]

Hey, back at ya! Good bubble tea is a good find. Every place has their own recipe and the owners of O-Cha have a good recipe and great personalities. Thus, I'm REALLY glad to have them invest in our downtown! It doesn't matter WHO it matters to. I know Charlotte has other bubble tea places, but I also have been to them and know they're lacking on their brews... Just an opinion, though. You may not care who opens in a shopping center, but the same thing with a better product endorsing our downtown is a BIG win.., IMO! We'll take it, AND, we have! They've been successful and should continue to be!

The owners of O-cha said Charlotte's downtown hours were problematic. Too much business and not enough of everything else. This WAS before 2000. However, it's no secret that Charlotte is extremely business focused downtown, and has had problem getting the kind of synergy that Greenville offers on evenings and weekends. I have lots of family there and experience it year round. It's been improved over the years (NO DOUBT), but it's still a work in progress for a City that size. And, back in the 90's, Greenville quite honestly has Charlotte BEAT. It's not a question. However, as a Charlotte and Columbia booster, I'm sure that'll be difficult to see... Whatever....

Every city is a work in progress...........As for being a "booster", I guess that is where we disagree. I have spent the majority of my life in the upstate and all of my family (except mine) still lives there. So, I do not necessarily see myself as only a Cola/Charlotte booster. I just find it VERY interesting that there are always comparisons between Greenville-Charlotte and Greenville-Columbia (since you are a Clemson fan, that would explain the bias against Cola). Now, I admit, I would find it very hard to move back to the upstate from Charlotte so, maybe in that respect, I am a Charlotte booster.

Regarding Charlotte v. Greenville, of course this is subjective, as is your opinion, but, I do not see that Greenville would have beat Charlotte back in the 80's, 90's, today or whenever (many others agree as our growth patterns across the board are dramatically different). It is true that downtown is very business focused, as it should be with Fortune 500 company headquarters, but, that is not all that exists. It would be easy to list out the different venues, restaurants, performing art centers, museums etc..... which generate the "synergies" downtown but, I doubt you would be interested. And to be honest, the reason that I asked the original question about the tea shop is that it is a waste of time to compare the two cities, ( you seriously posted something today that a tea shop owner said over 10 years ago??). Simply put, the cities are VERY different in the degree and type of development, there is not much of a need to compare the two.

[GvilleSC]

And to be honest, the reason that I asked the original question about the tea shop is that it is a waste of time to compare the two cities, ( you seriously posted something today that a tea shop owner said over 10 years ago??). Simply put, the cities are VERY different in the degree and type of development, there is not much of a need to compare the two.

The state of Charlotte ten years ago gave Greenville an asset to its downtown today. It was said a week ago, and was an interesting fact as to how Greenville got a business that I frequent when I'm here. It's not a comparison of the two cities, or their growth. Hop off it.

[clt29301]

The state of Charlotte ten years ago gave Greenville an asset to its downtown today. It was said a week ago, and was an interesting fact as to how Greenville got a business that I frequent when I'm here. It's not a comparison of the two cities, or their growth. Hop off it.

Obviously we see things differently so, we need to get back on the topic, enjoy your tea shop.