GSP International

[Spartan]

Its still ridiculous that GSP is that expensive. Thats the kind of ranking we don't want to have. In order to remain competitive they are going to have to compete. Its not bad to drive an hour up the road to Charlotte.

[gs3]

Call me crazy, but I'm glad to see the high prices. The airlines can (and are) making money at GSP. In these economic times, high prices are ensuring good air service at GSP. We've lost a few flights, but nothing like the gut that has happened in tourist (low cost airfare) locations (ie: Orlando).

Look at this simple calculation:

GSP:

A 50 seat Delta Connection regional jet:

Average of $600 per passenger to LaGuardia and the plane fills say 40 of the 50 seats. Delta made 24,000.00 on the flight.

Orlando:

A 50 seat Delta Connection regional jet:

Average of $275 per passenger to LaGuardia and the plane fills all 50 seats. Delta made 13,750.00 on the flight.

As you can see, the airlines can fill fewer seats and make more money out of GSP. Additionally, the morning and evening flights I take, rarely, if ever have empty seats. The airlines are doing well here.

Also, most flights make their money in the following order:

1. Cargo in the belly pays the most profit.

2. Business travelers pay the next largest chunk of profit.

3. Leisure/tourist travelers are the smallest portion of profit.

GSP is a great airport for business travelers and the airlines like it. They make money. GSP is not a friend of the leisure/tourist traveler.

Why say GSP is not competitive, when it is competitive. It simply isn't competitive for the leisure/tourist segment of dollars.

[Spartan]

But how do those calculations compare with operating expenses (fuel costs, employee costs, etc), landing fees, and other expenses that drive up costs? Its not as simple as saying that they made $24k on a flight. What is their net revenue from that flight as it compares to CLT or ATL?

What I don't understand is how all of that plays into the airline pricing structure. Is Charlotte able to offer better prices simply because its a US Air hub or is it because its a larger airport and their volume is higher? If anyone understands all of that, I would love a good explanation of it.

[gs3]

But how do those calculations compare with operating expenses (fuel costs, employee costs, etc), landing fees, and other expenses that drive up costs? Its not as simple as saying that they made $24k on a flight. What is their net revenue from that flight as it compares to CLT or ATL?

What I don't understand is how all of that plays into the airline pricing structure. Is Charlotte able to offer better prices simply because its a US Air hub or is it because its a larger airport and their volume is higher? If anyone understands all of that, I would love a good explanation of it.

From what I understand in talking with airline personnel, it is almost as simple as my calculation. On the calculation, I used the same size plane for GSP vs Orlando. Personnel cost are somewhat fixed (it would be the two pilot/co-pilot, the same cabin attendant, the same one gate agent, the same two to three ramp workers/baggage handlers regardless of airport). As these people are unionized, pay is basically the same. Fuel prices are paid by the airline corporately and would not vary from city to city.

Airport landing fees, I'm not clear on, but they can't be that different among (non hub) airports....GSP vs. Orlando. Obviously, in a hub airport like Charlotte or Atlanta, USAirways or Delta would get a substantial break.

But I wasn't comparing to Charlotte. I was simply saying, GSP makes money for the airlines. Actually, many Charlotte flights probably make less margin, due to the fact USAirways has to lower it's ticket prices on routes where it competes with AirTran, JetBlue, etc.

From what I understand, competition is the only factor that drives an airline to lower cost. USAirways isn't "able" to offer lower cost in Charlotte, it simply "has" to lower cost to compete with the low cost carriers on matching routes/matching connecting routes. To prove that, look at Cincinnati....the top 100 airport with the highest ticket prices. Guess what, it is a major Delta hub. Second in size to Atlanta, yet the ticket prices are worse than GSP. The reason, Delta in Cincinnati has no low cost competition....no Southwest, no AirTran, etc.

Being a hub doesn't ensure low cost......being a hub only ensures many nonstop flights. For every low cost flight from a hub, you'll have a high cost flight as well.

Airlines are greedy and will take as much as they can get.......low cost competition is really the only equalizer.

[breed]

Not even close. I had to fly to Anaheim on business last month but I was bringing my wife and daughter. If I'm flying by myself I will fly out of GSP 'cause my company is paying for the ticket, however since I had to pay for my wife I checked GSP vs CLT; $300 cheaper! Even with gas and parking, Charlotte has a $4/day long term lot (can't beat it) I saved close to $200. That's not chump change and it's really important to me to be wise with money. It's been my experience that people who think not driving to Charlotte is worth $200 are the same ones that spend $5 ona latte, 5 x's a week and are $20k in credit card debt.

I did fly out of Greenville instead of Charlotte when the time saved resulted in requiring one less night in a hotel at my destination.

[gs3]

Was in Mauldin today by the MHS and saw a Delta 737 making its final approach to GSP. Never knew they used that equipment into or out of GSP or was this an emergency landing? Unfamiliar with the equipment Delta usually uses at GSP.

Delta is now using the 737-800 on afternoon, weekday flights. I was on one this past week. They've changed around their equipment recently and we now get the Embraer 170/175, 737-800, MD-88, and multiple versions of the CRJ.....everything from the 100 to the 900.

[mallguy]

GSP's direct flights have been cut back- try flying from New York City to GSP now and there are far fewer options compared to what there was a few years ago- barely a handful of direct flights between the two. If flying to GSP is time-consuming and expensive, that has to figure into factors considered by companies considering locating in the Upstate.

Plus frequent train service from the Northeast and especially from Raleigh along I-85 basically ends at Charlotte, with just one train in each direction coming through Greenville at bad hours. Why isn't anything much being done about that, too?

[gman430]

Allegiant Air to begin offering direct flights from Punta Gorda to GSP: http://www.allegiantair.com/aaNews/aaNews20081202a.php

Edited December 2, 2008 by citylife

[gs3]

Allegiant Air to begin offering direct flights from Punta Gorda to GSP: http://www.allegiantair.com/aaNews/aaNews20081202a.php

Good to see service to the Ft.Myers metro.

I was skeptical of Allegiant at first as they have a tendency to start service to a city, only stay a few months, then drop the city. Seems to be working out well here though....they have been here almost two years or so? To get a 4th Florida nonstop destination says Greenville must be doing well for them.

Funny the other city to get this service is Knoxville. Before Independence went bankrupt, it was made well known by their employees on airline message boards that Greenville, Knoxville and Huntsville, AL. were the three top performing cities within the route network.

[huck94]

Go to this link if you want to check out what's flying in and out of GSP.

http://flightaware.com/live/airport/KGSP

[gs3]

Allegiant Air to begin offering direct flights from Punta Gorda to GSP: http://www.allegiantair.com/aaNews/aaNews20081202a.php

Article from GV News about this. Good comments from the company spokesperson and CEO about the success of Allegiant in Greenville.

http://www.greenvilleonline.com/article/20...INESS/812030365

Edited December 3, 2008 by gsupstate

[Sonrise]

Good to see service to the Ft.Myers metro.

I was skeptical of Allegiant at first as they have a tendency to start service to a city, only stay a few months, then drop the city. Seems to be working out well here though....they have been here almost two years or so? To get a 4th Florida nonstop destination says Greenville must be doing well for them.

Funny the other city to get this service is Knoxville. Before Independence went bankrupt, it was made well known by their employees on airline message boards that Greenville, Knoxville and Huntsville, AL. were the three top performing cities within the route network.

I wouldn't call this a Ft. Myers metro thing; Ft. Myers has their own airport. PGD is almost equidistant between Sarasota and Ft. Myers. It's a regional thing and pretty smart imho. Lakeland Airport is trying to recruit airlines as well, as they're almost exactly halfway between Tampa and Orlando.

[gs3]

I wouldn't call this a Ft. Myers metro thing; Ft. Myers has their own airport. PGD is almost equidistant between Sarasota and Ft. Myers. It's a regional thing and pretty smart imho. Lakeland Airport is trying to recruit airlines as well, as they're almost exactly halfway between Tampa and Orlando.

25 miles / 20 minute drive in my mind is the same metro.

[Sonrise]

25 miles / 20 minute drive in my mind is the same metro.

Is it that close? I lived in Ft. Myers briefly in the early 90's, I didn't realize that. I apologize. Man, if it works that airport may really bring fares down at Ft. Myers. I wish Charlotte's population center was moving south, closer to GSP so we could be part of their catchment and reduce fares for both airports, but there's still a whole lotta nothing between GSP and Gastonia(southern most suburb of Charlotte).

[gs3]

Is it that close? I lived in Ft. Myers briefly in the early 90's, I didn't realize that. I apologize. Man, if it works that airport may really bring fares down at Ft. Myers.

With all the growth in between, the entire Port Charlotte / Punta Gorda / Ft. Myers / Naples strand has turned into another Ft.Lauderdale-Miami type area. This new flight really opens up an entire new region to GSP travelers.

http://www.mapquest.com/maps?1c=Ft+Myers&a...601&2v=CITY

[gs3]

Planned a last minute trip to Orlando to meet friends and decided to try Allegiant. A few pics and a report on the service. While I probably won't fly Allegiant any time in the future due the unbreakable addiction that is Delta Platinum Medallion , I would definitely love to fly Allegiant again. It was a very positive experience. Recommend them highly. They've got a good thing going on.

Pros:

- Cheap basic airfare. You can then choose what "extras" you want to pay for. Carry on free or pay for checked luggage. Let them assign you a seat free or pay for an assigned seat. Want to have priority boarding....a small fee. Not thirsty, no dollars wasted.....thirsty, pay for a drink.

- One class cabin...all coach, but the seats are the BEST coach seats I've seen domestically.....a bit more of a seat pitch (about 33"/34") than most legacy carriers so you have a couple of extra inches of legroom......all leather, with strong side bolsters and headrest......Allegiant moved the knee-level seatback pouch that most legacy airlines have, to the seatback top, which frees up even more legroom (photo below). Great legroom....very comfortable seats.

- Quick boarding. Not sure how they did it, but both the outbound and inbound flights boarded quickly (much quicker than a Delta MD-80 boards). These were Orlando flights loaded with families and kids (typically slow boarders). I was very impressed with the organization of boarding. Both flights left on time.

- Service once in the air was almost immediate and quick.....none of the time burning flight attendant gossip huddles so common on legacy carriers. Menu had a good variety of drinks and a variety of snack packs for purchase. Toys, games, Disney/Orlando souvenirs can be purchased.

- The coach class service on Allegiant was comparable with the business class service I receive on Delta.....Allegiant is great value.

Cons:

- LOTS, LOTS, LOTS of children, so be prepared to have your feet stepped on in the gate area. Also, many first time flyers, so expect to hear strange questions in the gate area.

- The flight attendants sprinkle their announcements with corny humor.....fun for the kids, but........I just put in my earphones.

Note: As I was one of the first to board in Greenville, chatted with the mid cabin attendant a bit and she confirmed Greenville is a shining star in the Allegiant system......she hinted to expect more growth (additional flights and vacation destinations from Greenville). Their load factors are in the high 90%. My outbound MD-88 (150 seats) was totally full. Not one single empty seat. Return flight MD-88 (150 seats) had only two empty seats.

[GvilleSC]

That's great to hear!

I'm hoping that wherever I head for graduate school, if flying is needed, they'll be an option for travel...

[gs3]

That's great to hear!

I'm hoping that wherever I head for graduate school, if flying is needed, they'll be an option for travel...

Allegiant definitely seems to be a bright spot in the airline industry. Their shares were up 51% druing a rough 2008 period (see article). They seem to be called out as one of the few bright spots. Glad they are in Greenville.

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/200...ines-2008_N.htm

[distortedlogic]

Glad to hear good news about Allegiant.

Surprised no one has mentioned this, but the airport director at GSP has retired, and the Asheville airport commissioner has been named to fill the position. I would greatly like to hear some thoughts on this. Should GSP have gone after someone form a larger airport (sort of like hiring a proven coach), or will this guy be a good fit?

[Greenville]

Glad to hear good news about Allegiant.

Surprised no one has mentioned this, but the airport director at GSP has retired, and the Asheville airport commissioner has been named to fill the position. I would greatly like to hear some thoughts on this. Should GSP have gone after someone form a larger airport (sort of like hiring a proven coach), or will this guy be a good fit?

My knee-jerk reaction was to be disappointed that we hired someone from a much smaller airport. However, upon reading the article I am glad to hear him say that we must find ways to compete with Atlanta and Charlotte airports. He has prior experience in Orlando and Miami so hopefully he learned a thing or two. Plus, he increased Asheville's operating budget from $500,000 to $2 million in just five years. Not bad.

Edited February 4, 2009 by Greenville

[distortedlogic]

I tend to agree. In looking at the avl website, I was very surprised to see that it offers 39 daily flights to seven cities. I would have guessed more like 15-20 flights to about 4-5 cities, given that the Asheville market is much smaller thatn the GSA market.

Also, CNBC interviewed the CEO of Allegiant today, they are the only airline to post a profitt in each of the 4 quarters of 2008.

[Sonrise]

We need to offer incentives to Low Cost carriers, plain and simple. I fly outta GSP 3x's a month and all of the flights are very busy. We were just named the 3rd most expensive airport in the country, yet again, after Cincinnati and Knoxville. They should make a huge push to get Southwest in here, they're one of, if not the only airlines to turn a profit in '08 and only serve Raleigh in all of the Carolinas. Also, the fact that we're in the top three in yields for Allegient I would really encourage them to fly to more markets then just Florida, and we have a very good precedent with them.

[gman430]

We need to offer incentives to Low Cost carriers, plain and simple. I fly outta GSP 3x's a month and all of the flights are very busy. We were just named the 3rd most expensive airport in the country, yet again, after Cincinnati and Knoxville. They should make a huge push to get Southwest in here, they're one of, if not the only airlines to turn a profit in '08 and only serve Raleigh in all of the Carolinas. Also, the fact that we're in the top three in yields for Allegient I would really encourage them to fly to more markets then just Florida, and we have a very good precedent with them.

GSP does not offer incentives to low cost carriers. They think it's something airports don't do anymore even if I disagree. The only commercial airline to make a profit in 2008 was Allegiant.

[distortedlogic]

Per Allegiant's website, they will be adding "a new destination" in 8 days, and if you guess correctly you could win something. Not sure if they are adding a new focus city, but it sounds more like they will just be naming a new destination from a focus city. If GSP is open to expansion with Allegiant, perhaps the Las Vegas route will return. Mesa/ (phoenix) is now also a focus city. I would really like to see flights to places like Colo Spgs(/Denver), and Portsmouth NH (Boston and Portland areas), as well as a West coast flight, but unfortunately, Allegiant offers flights only to and from their focus cities. Also of interest, per Wikipedia, Allegiant filed for chapter 11 in 2000, so sounds like they have made a nice recovery.

[Galley]

My relatives can fly from Fargo, ND to Phoenix-Mesa, AZ for as little as $29.00, non-stop. On my recent trip to Phoenix, I had to fly through Memphis and Detroit.

Edited February 5, 2009 by Galley