GSP International

[gvillenative]

I believe there was a little mis-understanding about the comment. I think he meant that the so called "Legacy" carriers have flown comparable aircraft into and out of GSP not Southwest itself.

Might I mention aircraft that seat more than B737's. The point being the potential is there to fill 737's when a lot of MD-80's out of here are practicully full. Most I've been on have been as well so I can attest. They seat more than the 737-300's Southwest flies most of the time.

[gs3]

Southwest does not fly B737s to GSP, which is what this whole thread is about.

Independence flew smaller regional jets with frequent flights (and went bust in part because its load factors were so low).

Gsupstate, I know you're new to town, as you've mentioned- others of us on the board have known GSP for decades- I remember when part of the airport was open-air in the 1970s and you could sit there and watch planes take off...and they weren't B737s.

I know Southwest never flew 737's to Greenville.....Southwest has never served Greenville. Duh!

My comment was that mainline planes have and do fly here, on legacy carriers. I fly in and out of GSP multiple times a week. I know the airport and airlines well. USAirways has flown 737's and A319's here in the past, before them, Piedmont flew Fokkers F-28 and 737's / 727's. Eastern flew DC-9's. Delta has flown MD-80s. Allegiant has flown MD-80's.

Independence only flew regional jets, I never said any different. The point was that when Independence flew here, the airport was approaching 1.9 in yearly passengers.

And by the way, Mallguy, in the 1970's, regional jets did not exist. They came about in the early 90's. In the 70's, all you would have seen at GSP would have been mainline planes. But why look back, this isn't the 70's. This is 2009.

And please do not quote my post in pieces and patch it together to make it look like I said something I did not.

Edited September 30, 2009 by gsupstate

[ilaustin36]

A couple comments...

Regarding the notion that Greenville would be one of the smallest markets that they would fly out of...

Not really. You have to keep in mind that Greenville would actually start competing on price with Charlotte and Atlanta, meaning people would actually start looking at Greenville as an option from out-of-market. And even in the most pessimistic scenarios, we would at least pull traffic from Asheville. At that point, the GSP market area starts to look like the Greenville DMA (the Greenville television market). The Greenville DMA is the 36th largest in the country. That does not include any of the Charlotte or Atlanta markets, neither of which Southwest flies out of... so the potential is there.

The two biggest benefits of having a discount airline...

1. Price

I think we've been all over this, and it's easy to see. Just go look at comparable flights out of Greenville, Asheville, Charlotte, Atlanta, Raleigh... just about anywhere. You are typically going to pay about 50-75% more to fly out of Greenville than out of other airports. While GSP is great to fly into and out of, it's not worth the extra cost in most situations.

2. Diversity

A common criticism of those looking to locate here is the inability to get a direct flight out of GSP. Recruiting a company from Boston or Los Angeles is tough when you have to route them through Charlotte or Atlanta just to get here. One of the biggest challenges Greenville faces is that it is generally a smaller market than the markets it competes against. We are constantly fighting the perception that it is difficult for a large company to do business as usual. Once that hurdle is overcome, the market does extremely well. The lack of flight diversity out of GSP is a fly in the ointment of fighting the small market perception. Having a greater number of destinations to choose from would be a huge asset in this regard.

At the same time, I'm as cost-conscious as anyone. It is important not to simply hand out money without strings. I think any incentives need to attached to flight or destination requirements, much like incentives to companies are attached to the creation of new jobs. Considering that Southwest does not have a huge presence in the southeast, I do think it is possible that Southwest may be examining the location's potential as a major hub. If that is the case, then we need to jump in with both feet.

On the major hub potential...

They have a significant presence in Nashville and Orlando. Other smaller locations are Raleigh and Birmingham. Obviously, they want to increase their foothold in the southeast, where the demographics are strong and continue to grow stronger. The question is... where do they expand? Atlanta is a major airport that is busy and a mess. Charlotte is a better airport, but it is pretty large and busy. Greenville is an under-utilized airport where they could very easily have their run of the place and could effectively serve both markets with a major presence. While I still think it is a long shot, I don't think it is beyond the realm of possibility.

gsp as a market would not be the smallest i.e lubbock, amarillo, birmingham, jackson ms are smaller markets

Edited September 30, 2009 by ilaustin36

[mallguy]

And by the way, Mallguy, in the 1970's, regional jets did not exist. They came about in the early 90's. In the 70's, all you would have seen at GSP would have been mainline planes. But why look back, this isn't the 70's. This is 2009.

I went through some of my old photo albums from the '70s. There were some small propeller-type planes on the tarmac at GSP then. I'm very familiar with the airport and its operations and have been for years. I'll come to you for advice about the BHM airport as I trust that you have extensive familiarity with it, being new to Greenville.

Edited September 30, 2009 by mallguy

[gs3]

I went through some of my old photo albums from the '70s. There were some small propeller-type planes on the tarmac at GSP then. I'm very familiar with the airport and its operations and have been for years. I'll come to you for advice about the BHM airport as I trust that you have extensive familiarity with it, being new to Greenville.

Excellent. Feel free to ask any info about B'ham. I can fill you in.

As for GSP, since my knowledge doesn't seem to be enough for you, you can pick up the hard back book called "Greenville-Spartanburg International Airport: Upstate South Carolina's Gateway to the World" by Dave Partridge. It will help you brush on GSP history. Interesting photo in the color pages with photo credit to Joe F. Jordan that shows the GSP terminal with two US Air (when they were called US Air) 737's at the terminal, one unidentified MD-80 that looks to be American at the terminal and one Delta MD-80 in taxi. There are also a few regional jets.

While the book is available at Amazon.com, looks like you can pick up a copy on Ebay for a better price.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Greenville-Spartanburg...914167001r27076

My copy of the book helped me understand the history of GSP and helped me understand the many and varied mainline size planes like 737's, 727's, MD-80's, DC-9's, etc that airlines have flown here regularly over all the years since GSP opened. Maybe the book will be a help for you too.

Edited September 30, 2009 by gsupstate

[gman430]

Dave Edwards, GSP executive director, said that a Southwest team was in the Greenville area in August and that he has met with airline officials in Dallas since then.

Greenville-area business and community leaders are aggressively recruiting Southwest Airlines in hopes the Dallas-based carrier will bring more competition and lower local airfares, which are among the highest in the nation.

http://www.greenvilleonline.com/article/20...s-about-service

[mallguy]

you can pick up the hard back book called "Greenville-Spartanburg International Airport: Upstate South Carolina's Gateway to the World" by Dave Partridge

I have that book on my shelf already. Thanks. Plus many others of us on the board have first-hand experience with GSP throughout the decades. I'll be sure to ask you about BHM if I have any questions about that.

citylife- thanks for the article link- very helpful and interesting.

[Greenville]

I have that book on my shelf already. Thanks. Plus many others of us on the board have first-hand experience with GSP throughout the decades. I'll be sure to ask you about BHM if I have any questions about that.

So exactly how long must someone live in an area before they are qualified to post about it? From what I gather, gsupstate has lived in Greenville for a while now, and uses GSP as much as (and probably more than) anyone here on a weekly and monthly basis. He of all people knows what kind of planes currently fly into and out of GSP. Plus, he has obviously read extensively about the airport's history in order to comment on planes that used to use GSP. There's no reason to dismiss his posts just because he has not lived in Greenville for decades.

I can't wait until someone challenges you about shopping malls. There will certainly be hell to pay then!

[mallguy]

So exactly how long must someone live in an area before they are qualified to post about it?

...

I can't wait until someone challenges you about shopping malls. There will certainly be hell to pay then!

Anyone can post about anything anytime but the post should be considered in light of its source- someone who writes in detail about Greenville and who has lived there for decades (remember Henry Bacon McKoy?), to me, often has more that I learn from than someone who's just read about it in a book and who moved to town in the last few years.

I'm also a frequent flyer- at least 60,000 miles on one airline alone for the past 7 years, and a few years of over 100,000.

(EDITED TO ADD: I've flown in and out of LaGuardia at least monthly, if not weekly, for over a decade. But I hadn't even been to that airport, except once, before the mid-'90s. I've read books about its history. But I wouldn't expect others to consider me a fountain of knowledge about its history.)

I'd be happy to have someone correct me and challenge me about malls- it would help my own knowledge. Please do so if I post something that's not fully correct. But if someone started posting about McAlister Square in the '70s, where I basically grew up, and the person had just read about it in a book, I'd take that into consideration; the information could be correct and helpful, but the first-hand experience adds to the info.

Edited October 1, 2009 by mallguy

[gvillenative]

Was just going through an e-mail box of mine that I forgoten about for quite some time. Saw something that caught my interest and was wondering if anyone else had recieved the same e-mail. It was an e-mail stating they were aggresively seeking a GSP to Miami route and had a survey to take being thatit was back in August it was obviously too late to take it.

[vicupstate]

I received it too. I think it was mentioned here before.

[gman430]

This has nothing to do with GSP but I thought you guys might find it interesting: http://www.postandcourier.com/news/2009/oc...arleston-dec-3/ It could actually help us land Southwest Airlines.

[gman430]

No mention of GSP still: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/articl..._bJXKAD9BFLRR00 Edited October 21, 2009 by citylife

[gs3]

Delta is making yet another round of cuts to the pathetic remains of what was once a great hub....Cincinnati. So far GSP has survived and will keep flights, but don't be shocked to see them go late in 2010. Early in 2010, several airports will lose their nonstops to CVG, including Charleston.....see article:

Delta to Cut Another 10 Percent of Flights - WJW

About the only good thing left to the shell of the CVG hub is being able to get Peet's coffee.

[jarvismj]

Delta is making yet another round of cuts to the pathetic remains of what was once a great hub....Cincinnati. So far GSP has survived and will keep flights, but don't be shocked to see them go late in 2010. Early in 2010, several airports will lose their nonstops to CVG, including Charleston.....see article:

Delta to Cut Another 10 Percent of Flights - WJW

About the only good thing left to the shell of the CVG hub is being able to get Peet's coffee.

Honestly, and I know this is off topic, but CVG needs to consolidate and move all the airlines into the Terminal 3 complex, which "was" Delta's hub. If you've seen Terminals 1 and 2, they are extremely outdated, not to mention it would help make CVG at the very least appear to be a robust airport once again.

Back on topic, I was doing some research last week for a class, and looking up some info on Guam. If one were to look at a Google Satellite image of the international airport on the island, it is an almost perfect future model for GSP, albeit 20-30 years down the road. Here is some link goodness.

[gs3]

Honestly, and I know this is off topic, but CVG needs to consolidate and move all the airlines into the Terminal 3 complex, which "was" Delta's hub. If you've seen Terminals 1 and 2, they are extremely outdated, not to mention it would help make CVG at the very least appear to be a robust airport once again.

Great to see you post Mr. Jarvis. Hope all is well with you!

Agreed. The old concourse that all the other airlines use is a disgrace. Tiny, dull, old. CVG is going the route of Pittsburgh. Sad.

[gvillenative]

What are the odds that the Boeing anouncement would have any hand in helping us land Southwest? Is it a stretch to think it could possibly help?

[vicupstate]

^^ to the extent that GSP area business and industry get additional business from the announcement, then it helps. It certainly can't hurt. If the electric bus company opens in ICAR, that would probably help too.

[distortedlogic]

Nice article about the new GSP director Dave Edwards and some of his plans and efforts to upgrade the airport and attract new service. He specifically mentions destionations such as Miami, Boston, and Denver, and says they are talking with all low fare carriers right now. Also mentions a study being done on upgrades that could lead to work being done as soon as next Summer. I like what I am reading about this guy, he seems to be a go getter, which is what the airport really needs.

[jarvismj]

Nice article about the new GSP director Dave Edwards and some of his plans and efforts to upgrade the airport and attract new service. He specifically mentions destionations such as Miami, Boston, and Denver, and says they are talking with all low fare carriers right now. Also mentions a study being done on upgrades that could lead to work being done as soon as next Summer. I like what I am reading about this guy, he seems to be a go getter, which is what the airport really needs.

I read the article Saturday night when it was first posted online, and one thing that sticks out is the joining of the concourses. I think the only thing preventing it would be the HVAC setup on top of the restaurant. One question is that if the concourses were joined, would they renumber the gates sequentially and do away with the A-B designation?

[distortedlogic]

Surprised no one has posted this link yet. Article about Panama City's new Intn'l airport landing Southwest. The market areas are very similar, but apparently PC has agreed to cover any and all losses should they occur over the 1st 3 years, something Dave Edwards says GSP is not in a position to do. He apparently sees this as sort of a message to those courting SW. SO I guess the search goes on, but it sounds like they are not going to just bow down for SW. Also, I saw in seperate headlines over the past couple of days that MYB is getting a direct Toronto route, and Chas. is adding a second daily Miami flight. SO our coastal neighbors seem to be having a little more luck than we are.

[gs3]

Also, I saw in seperate headlines over the past couple of days that MYB is getting a direct Toronto route, and Chas. is adding a second daily Miami flight. SO our coastal neighbors seem to be having a little more luck than we are.

Yep, Air Tran pulling out of Charleston because they couldn't make money was luck. Charleston losing their Cincinnati Delta flights was luck. Not good luck.....but luck.

[gman430]

Panama City along with the airport didn't give any money and is not covering any losses to Southwest Airlines. A local developer out of that area did. Airports are forbidden under FAA guidelines from giving incentives to airlines to expand into their area. Oh and another article on GSP here: http://www.ipubviewer.com/display_article.php?id=250701

Edited November 18, 2009 by citylife

[Danmire]

The St. Joe company who is the financial backer mentioned is a HUGE company. They are a paper company they owned huge chunks of property in the panhandle area down from Panama City Beach where they grew the trees necessary for paper production. They have since started to develop a large portion of that property into residential development along the Forgotten Coast beaches. Port St. Joe is the town named after the St. Joe Company which is about 30 minutes from Panama City Beach.

[rssgvegas]

Allegiant announced today that they are moving out of Orlando-Sanford and flying into Orlando International starting Feb 8th. What's funny is they announced a special deal of rates as low as $45 each way to start the service. Right now the rates are $27 each way to Orlando, so obviously this move comes with a price increase. Still not a bad deal though.

http://www.wyff4.com/news/21776736/detail.html